Liberals: help me understand the Kilmar Abrego Garcia situation
This is in regards to the guy from El Salvador that has been illegally living in the United States for a while now, Kilmar Abrego Garcia.
I don't know the specific details and am not well-versed in this despite reading a bit up on it. I ask for other opinions here because I want to be informed and even though I try to avoid it, I am aware that I am going to end up receiving biased information no matter where I look.
If you don't know who Garcia is, perhaps this photos will jog your memory
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This is a picture of a Senator from Maryland visiting Garcia in El Salvador. The Senator is someone you probably have never heard of named Chris Van Hollen. I know I have never heard of the guy even though being a Senator is kind of a big deal and Maryland is only about 5 hours drive away from where I live.
I find the picture quite amusing and can't help but feel as though they selected clothing to make Garcia look as not gangster-looking as possible. They also made sure his tattoo covered hands were under the table for the photos and had him dressed in clothes that made him look as innocuous as possible.
The man was living in the United States illegally, and was deported. Should that not be the end of the conversation? If I was overseas and staying in that country without a visa and they caught me, I would expect to be forced to leave, wouldn't you?
But this is being seriously debated by certain members of Congress who all have (D) next to their name and several of them have flown down to El Salvador to demand that this man, who is NOT a US Citizen be returned to the United States.
I have empathy towards the fact that he has children in the United States but with all the family-building going on, there are also accounts of two separate judges determining that he is a MS-13 gang leader, and that he has ties to human-trafficking as well. None of this has been proven as far as I can tell because he would be in jail if it were, and I also don't think it is especially important to this case. The fact of the matter is that he was living in the US illegally and to me that is basically the end of the story, is it not?
I employ a lot of Mexican and other Latin American immigrants on my various job sites for construction here in North Carolina. I rarely discuss anything politically oriented with them because I don't want to create a difficult work environment. But several of the people that have been working with me for years have said that they believe deporting him was the correct move but they may be saying this because all of them went through the arduous process of coming,living, and staying here LEGALLY. They may actually dislike illegal immigrants even more than people who were born in the US, because they had to do so much in order to stay here legally.
I feel that Van Hollen is doing this for his own personal gain and this could end up backfiring on him massively.
I am also, as a conservative, willing to admit that I probably don't have all the correct information even though I really do try to get both sides to the story.
So I know there are a few liberal-oriented people out there that are capable of having calm and sane conversations with someone that doesn't see eye-to-eye with them politically and I would like it if you could give me a real opinion about this and perhaps help me to understand why these politicians would be selecting this particular case to be in the forefront.
I'm not here to lecture anyone or to change anyone's mind. I just want to try to understand the real argument for this situation, if there even is one.
He's married to an American, has a court order stating he should stay in the US, and even Trump's stacked Supreme Court says he should be bringing the dude back.
Republicans constantly want to scream that it's about "following the law" but Trump is not following the law. Innocent until Proven Guilty is one of the most important laws out there.
If he's really here "illegally," which you've poisoned the well by stating multiple times without proof, it should be proven in a trial. If we give that up, Trump can simply deport anyone he wants on his word alone.
it is easy to understand how someone would come to the conclusion that he is an illegal immigrant, because even liberal politicians and outlets are admitting that he entered the country illegally. it is well-documented that he illegally entered the US.
He was however, legally allowed to live and work in the US because of a "withholding of removal" order. This is an important distinction to make but you shouldn't get on someone's case for not knowing all of this because all the media sites are telling half-truths about Cortez' status depending on their particular political leanings.
The right-oriented publications will call him an illegal alien, which technically he was once he entered illegally and even Cortez admits to this being the case. The left-oriented publications will not mention this but instead will call him something like a "Maryland father who immigrated from El Salvador"(but not mention the illegal part) which is ALSO technically true because he is a father and was last living in Maryland.
It is the objective of the media to muddy the waters so it is understandable when people can't see the truth since that truth is intentionally hidden from them.
Thanks for chiming in. I looked a bit further and even though it was tough to figure out what they were actually talking about since the media changes what this actually means depending on what their bias is the Supreme Court 9-0 ruling appears to suggest they agree that he should have been tried in-country (in USA) and not rushed to be removed... yet the conservative media is trying to say that the ruling was supporting what they did. It doesn't seem like that is the case to me.
Let's flip that around and ask why he should be sent to a foreign prison.
What crime is he accused of committing, and who is the victim? How does sending him to a foreign prison bring justice? He apparently followed "proper procedures," but the government trampled them.
Rights are not based on geography, they are based on being a human. The Bill of Rights does not grant privileges to the citizenry, it erects barriers to governmental overreach.
That's a potentially interesting discussion or line of inquiry. IE - what was the intent of the Bill of Rights, I'll do some legwork on that, and return for some discussion.
Arguably the entire purpose of the Constitution was for benefit of the people who drafted and ratified it, along with their posterity. Negative rights, or "freedoms from" are certainly an element of it.
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Check out the antifederalist papers.
I'm not very clear as to why he is in a El Salvador prison. What crime did he commit there? I can't find any.
While I think this is definitely being used by various politicians to benefit themselves you have been a bit misinformed about a few things and I am not going to get on your case for that because you do admit that you aren't sure and are here asking questions instead of soap-boxing everyone - I admire that. This is what forums are for.
Just for a quick catch up for you, here is what I know:
All the other information I can find that is put out there about him has been made intentionally obtuse by various media organizations.
My opinion doesn't really matter but I think that he was hastily deported and there should have been some sort of due process. As far as his involvement with gang activity is concerned - there is plenty of information that points in that direction but none of it is conclusive.
There is also ample evidence he fled to America due to gang pressure and never joined any gangs here
Thanks. Like i mentioned in the original post, I don't claim to have all the information. The "withholding of removal" that you talk about, this is the first time I am hearing about this and that kind of changes everything. Thanks for letting me know.
No, it’s not. This is all about due process. For better or worse, there was a “no removal” judge’s order. If ICE wanted him removed, they should have followed procedure. Gone before a judge and presented evidence.
Bring him back and do it right. If he then gets deported, fine. But he wasn’t even actually deported; he was renditioned in an extrajudicial manner.
I can't really argue with that and the more I think about it this seems like a really stupid hill to die on for conservatives because it does start to look like a bad mistake was made here. I wonder if there is more going on behind the scenes and nobody will admit to it.
Interesting, but I am sure people would argue that they WERE given due process since they did go to court. That doesn't change the fact that the Jan 6th-ers were treated very badly.
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J6 prisoner,
@RyanSamsel_
was tortured, neglected, and denied due process rights as he languished in 17 different facilities.
The world is watching.
And, we are waiting,
@AGPamBondi
.
We DEMAND you make THIS start happening to Democrats, soon!😕
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what is going on in this picture?
It was missing the explanation, sorry ;)