Discrimination - pros and cons
Dear Hiveans,
Let's talk about discrimination. Discrimination is
- the ability or power to see or make fine distinctions; discernment; and
- the treatment or consideration based on category, such as race, gender, religion or opinion.
Many politicians and (mainstream) media claim that discrimination in the latter sense is always wrong and evil; and therefore in many countries anti-discrimination laws have been passed.
I think and hope that we all agree that governments, public entities, companies and organizations should not discriminate against people based on superficial attributes like skin color, sex or national origin. Such discrimination would be highly immoral.
But what about discrimination of opinions like
- gender identity (in contrast to facts like sex (male / female))
- extremist political opinions (if vociferously advocated), e.g. socialism
- fundamentalist religion (e.g. Salafism, Wahhabism)
- how to present oneself appropriately in public?
Why should a hiring company be forbidden by law to discriminate against a socialist (whose opinion disallows free entrepreneurship) or a sales rep with blue hair, nose ring and face tattoos?
Discrimination is the crux of business success. Businesses have to discriminate between employees with good and bad opinions (dependent on knowledge and skills). If they choose employees with good opinions, they thrive. Otherwise probably not. If businesses discriminate based on shallow, irrelevant features like skin color or country of origin, they'll fail to get the best employees.
If we protect opinions and behavior patterns from discrimination, where does it stop?
Do I have to accept people with ridiculous opinions like the flat earth theory or "modern" blood libels?
And the core problem if we would prevent discrimination of opinions, is the following:
If we prevent discrimination of opinions, we rob ourselves of the means to discover truth and we go back to pre-Enlightenment. The core of discovering truth is making creative conjectures, followed by rigorous criticism, where bold, imaginative ideas are proposed and then tested against reality via empirical evidence and logical scrutiny. Incorrect assumptions/opinions are eliminated.
A government that prevents discrimination of opinions or of people with certain opinions (or even tries to), is effectively dictating that a selection of opinions is equally valuable. That is inherently fascist and totalitarian.
Have a great day,
zuerich
Liebe Hiver,
lasst uns über Diskriminierung sprechen.
Diskriminierung ist
- die Fähigkeit, feine Unterschiede zu erkennen oder zu machen; das Unterscheidungsvermögen
- die Betrachtung oder Behandlung auf der Grundlage von Kategorien wie Rasse, Geschlecht, Religion oder Meinung.
Viele Politiker und (Mainstream-)Medien behaupten, dass Diskriminierung im letzteren Sinne immer falsch und böse ist; daher wurden in vielen Ländern Antidiskriminierungsgesetze verabschiedet.
Ich denke und hoffe, dass wir uns alle einig sind, dass Regierungen, öffentliche Einrichtungen, Unternehmen und Organisationen Menschen nicht aufgrund oberflächlicher Merkmale wie Hautfarbe, Geschlecht oder nationaler Herkunft diskriminieren sollten. Eine solche Diskriminierung ist unmoralisch.
Aber wie sieht es mit der Diskriminierung aufgrund von Meinungen aus, wie z.B.
- Gender-Identität (im Gegensatz zu biologischen Fakten wie dem Geschlecht (männlich/weiblich))
- extremistischen politischen Ansichten (wenn diese lautstark vertreten werden), z.B. Sozialismus
- fundamentalistischen Religionen (z.B. Salafismus, Wahhabismus)
- der Frage, wie man sich in der Öffentlichkeit angemessen präsentiert?
Warum sollte es einem einstellenden Unternehmen gesetzlich verboten sein, einen Sozialisten (dessen Meinung freies Unternehmertum ablehnt) oder einen Vertriebsmitarbeiter mit blauen Haaren, Nasenring und Gesichtstätowierungen zu diskriminieren?
Diskriminierung ist der Kern von unternehmerischem Erfolg. Unternehmen müssen zwischen Mitarbeitern mit guten und schlechten Meinungen (abhängig von Wissen und Fähigkeiten) unterscheiden. Wenn sie Mitarbeiter mit guten Meinungen auswählen, sind sie tendenziell erfolgreich. Andernfalls wahrscheinlich nicht. Wenn Unternehmen aufgrund oberflächlicher, irrelevanter Merkmale wie Hautfarbe oder Herkunftsland diskriminieren, werden sie nicht die besten Mitarbeiter bekommen.
Wenn wir Meinungen und Verhaltensweisen vor Diskriminierung schützen, wo hört das dann auf? Muss ich Menschen mit lächerlichen Meinungen wie der Theorie der flachen Erde oder „modernen“ blood libels (wiki) akzeptieren?
Das Kernproblem, wenn wir die Diskriminierung von Meinungen verhindern würden, ist folgendes:
Wenn wir die Diskriminierung von Meinungen verhindern, berauben wir uns selbst der Mittel, um die Wahrheit zu entdecken, und kehren in die Zeit vor der Aufklärung zurück. Der Kern der Wahrheitsfindung besteht darin, zunächste kreative Vermutungen/Hypothesen anzustellen, gefolgt von rigoroser Kritik, und anschliessend dem Testen der Vermutung in der Realität anhand empirischer Beweise und logischer Überprüfungen. Falsche Vermutungen/Meinungen werden aussortiert.
Eine Regierung, die die Diskriminierung von Meinungen bzw. von Menschen mit gewissen Meinungen verhindert (oder das auch nur versucht), schreibt damit faktisch vor, dass eine Auswahl von Meinungen gleichwertig ist. Das ist faschistisch und totalitär.
Have a great day,
zuerich
Besser kann man es nicht ausdrücken 👍👍👍
I appreciate you,but you , over victimize yourself!
I don't think I'm wrong...but you are!
I don't understand. Where do I victimize myself?
Just look back on this post!
There is nothing where I present myself as victim. Because I am no victim 🤷🏻♂️
Ok! I wish it will stay that way!
I should say I'm wrong...but I know better...I'll let you know later,it's late here..
Not here,but on you other posts!
Which one?
I think you are mistaking me for someone else.
I wish I was wrong!
Exactly. Governments must protect liberties, not opinions or lifestyles. When they protect opinions, they destroy liberties: freedom of speech, freedom of belief, freedom of thought.
However, there is a gray zone where opinions become more than opinions, like, the guy in South Africa who called his voters to kill white people, and, when journalists asked him if he called for the mass killing of whites, he answered "No, but I can't guarantee, I won't call for that in the future".
Intimidation isn't just an opinion because it restricts liberties.
Intimidation can also be decentralized - another thing to think about.
I think as soon as people are afraid of being critical of anything (like Islam), it should be a reason for a big discussion in a nation - if your freedom has been hacked by someone you can’t see or sue, it doesn’t mean you should give up on your freedom.
I fully agree.
Your note regarding intimidation is very important. If I understand correctly, your note regarding "decentralized intimidation" refers to antifa 👍
Thank you,
zuerich
Islam, first of all. I don't mean that Islam is bad but it causes some types of problems.
:P was that first guy a cow / bull guy??
Dear @zuerich,
There is so much here, that I can't address it all in one comment. I don't know about laws in other countries. You and I previously addressed the issue of the Civil Rights Law of 1964 in the U.S., which I consider a necessary advance in civil rights. To understand why I believe it can never be considered a mistake we have to go back to the end of the Civil War, almost exactly 98 years before the signing of that law. While slaves were freed across the country at the end of the war, it took three amendments to grant them rights as citizens. These amendments didn't help much in the south. After the withdrawal of federal troops, protection for freed slaves was removed (1877). Segregation and denial of basic rights became enshrined in southern law. The Supreme Court was no help. In 1896, in Plessy v Fergusson, segregation was given the imprimatur of the Court. Jim Crow was unassailable in the South after that. Blacks weren't just second class citizens--they had nowhere to turn. The three Civil War amendments (13, 14, 15) didn't help them. The Supreme Court didn't help them. Not until '64 were sweeping mandates made that prohibited discrimination across the board, in public places. The law was not well received in the south, and in other places also. At least now, though, with the law's passage, blacks had a right to appeal their unequal treatment, everywhere in the country.
I can never consider that law a mistake.
I'll address one more part of your discussion: discrimination based on opinion. In the U.S., a worker's opinion is not protected. An employer can fire a worker without cause, unless that worker can prove the firing was a result of discrimination related to protected status (race, religion, color, sex, and national origin). There is no freedom of speech at work. As long as the speech is not related to a person's protected status, speech can get your fired (there are exceptions to this, such as organizing a union).
You seem to consider gender identity as an aspect of opinion. Gender identity is a matter of biology and psychology. We don't have a working definition of gender. It seems to exist on a sliding scale. Even gender at birth doesn't help. Some babies are born with ambiguous sexual traits, so the parents pick their gender. Some 'females' have more progesterone than other females. Some males have more estrogen than other males. And we certainly don't understand sexuality. Gender and sexuality are complex subjects--not for most of us, but for many of us. I certainly wouldn't characterize gender and sexuality as opinion.
I think I've used up enough space here. A fascinating, necessary discussion. I do have more thoughts (ex: religions extremism. How do you define that?) but I'll stop...although you do give me an idea for a blog.
I think it's great that you are willing to address this issue openly, that you offer it for discussion. That's what we need. Less fighting, less anger, more discussion. We have to step out of our comfort zones and try to see things from another perspective. We won't change our minds, but at least we'll be aware that there are other opinions out there, and that these are arrived at thoughtfully.
Thanks for the discussion.
Regards and respect,
@agmoore
Dear @agmoore,
Concerning the Civil Rights Act: I'm far from being an expert on this topic and, from my limited knowledge of it, I've always considered this act to be a great act advancing humanity.
My point was that it is possible to contend a law if there are instances in it that may, later, be abused to further insidious political goals.
Attacking people like Charlie Kirk for criticising this act because of its unintended consequences and accusing him of racism is wrong and a logical fallacy (probably induced by one's own political opinions/biases).
Yes, we don't have a definition of gender because there is no such thing as an objectifiable gender.
Of course people find themselves on a continuum of hormones (progesterone, testosterone, etc.). So should we have 7 billion genders? And what is that helpful for?
There are exactly 2 biological sexes. About 0.02% of babies are born with ambiguous genitalia. Those cases are called "conditions" or "disorders of sex development", and those cases do no change the fact that, biologically, the world is binary.
Gender identity and gender politics is rooted in postmodern philosophy (Jacques Derrida's non-scientific deconstructionism). This approach claims that objective, biological, empirical facts like male/female are power-laden social constructs - which is simply wrong. Biological sex is a fact, while "gender identities" are fictitious constructs. The relativistic understanding of those promoters of gender identity leads to a situation where personal feelings override shared language or empirical facts. This destroys a common basis for discussion and erodes social cohesion. And all of this identity-based politics reduces individuals to group affiliations (gender, race, sexuality, ...). This is contrary to the liberal tradition and to Enlightenment ideals (equality, rational discourse) themselves.
Thank you for the conversation, kind regards and respect,
@zuerich