To kill Social Security

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In a recent Joe Rogan experience Podcast, Elon Musk decided it would be "clever" to present his reasoning behind the idea of getting rid of social security. The public's reactions was precisely as you would expect.


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History be damned

I'm waiting for a sycophant to make this argument, and I expect it as soon as today, since X is being filled with comments attacking Musk.

Roosevelt, a known left wing operative who hated capitalism and wanted to bring forth communism to America, came up with this devilish idea.

The truth, of course, could not be further from such an idiotic statement.

This landmark legislation was a response to the widespread economic hardship caused by the Great Depression, which began in 1929. During that time, millions of Americans lost their jobs, savings, and homes, leaving many—especially the elderly—without a safety net. The Social Security Act aimed to address these issues by establishing a system of social insurance.

Before safety nets

Life in the modern world was not very different from the poorest of countries. Most people were poor. Most people would not live too long, because right after losing their ability to work, they would lose everything as a consequence.

Musk complains about people living for too long, as if it's a horrible thing. What is the implied solution he proposes? Think about it, because I doubt he thought about it himself.

We need more people to die younger? Is that what we are to take away from his "big brain ideas"?

More children

I said before, and I guess it warrants repeating. His persistence on America needing more children is fueled by this very idea that the only way for the Western experiment to continue, is to feed more people to what he also calls the Ponzi.

But, for the sake of clarity, because we ought to operate with honesty let's lay this out as bullet points.

  • Entitlement programs are a Ponzi
  • People are living too long
  • We need more babies to feed the Ponzi

Assuming I can put on some sort of Elon cap, which I truly can't, I'm left with an unsolvable dilemma.

Why would we need to feed the Ponzi, if the Ponzi is wrong?

I'm sure he's never figured this one out either, but kicking the can down the road is just fine.

I'm left with one conclusion here...

Logic be damned

Elon has not thought this through, and doesn't care enough about the idea being cogent. He just want to pay less taxes (he already avoid paying most years, and gets insane subsidies), and can't think of another way to keep even more, then destroying the current system.

Solution: Blow shit up.

MenO



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18 comments
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Ms Musk is deranged (I assume we don't respect pronouns any more). Like a lot of his type he doesn't seem to know what communism or a Ponzi actually are. Can't he just bugger off to Mars and run his empire there?

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I spat out my drink when I read Ms Musk...

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(Edited)

Stealing from social security is a recurring topic, right? In Brazil, they stole from social security during the Collor government.

The worst part is that, despite having done this in Brazil before, they're gradually setting things up to do it again, reporting on news channels how retirement is the largest, if not one of the largest, expenses of the government.

workers are forced to contribute part of their salary to their retirement, only to receive a smaller amount than what they contributed... and even so, politicians want to stop paying retirement. Pure theft.

Just like Musk. Politics aligned with the interests of billionaires' agenda.

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"...retirement is the largest, if not one of the largest, expenses of the government."

huh. And just what more important purpose can government be claimed to have than the felicity of the civil society governed? It is certainly appropriate that the majority of expenses of government be to provide for that felicity of the people it is intended to serve.

I'd point that out to anyone that finds that some kind of a valid argument against that being an acceptable situation.

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Oh brother, in Ecuador a president completely emptied the coffers of the social security department, claiming to need it for projects that would grow the country's GDP.

Correa, very much aligned with Lula, literally nuked a basic safety net to keep the party going (he was in power 10 years). I'm well aware of how these politicians "make their money" down here.

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When you say "Correa is aligned with Lula", you're implying it's likely that Lula walks the same path. Is that really what you mean? If so, on what basis?

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O presidente do Equador, Rafael Correa, foi e é considerado parte do movimento político de esquerda que dominou a política sul-americana por mais de uma década. Isso não significa que sejam exatamente iguais, já que é fácil pesquisar o fato de que tinham suas diferenças, mas sim estabelecer uma afinidade ideológica.
Uma frase constante usada em campanhas: Socialismo para o século XXI.

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(Edited)

Acho que uma base concreta para medir uma pessoa é feita do histórico dela, não do que ela fala. Especialmente no âmbito político, onde discursos e ações podem ser tão discrepantes.

Uma breve busca sobre o que Bolsonaro e o que Lula fizeram em relação à previdência acabou me mostrando que não faz sentido associar Lula com Correa, pelo menos em relação a perigos contra a segurança social.

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Thank you for your witness vote!
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As someone who's been talking about for years how SS is a Ponzi it's at least a little nice to see the idea get more attention. Yes people are living too long and not enough slaves are being born to sustain the Ponzi. That's why it's going to destroy itself no matter what. That's what all Ponzinomics do: implode.

And yet we can't get rid of the Ponzi because the old farts in charge of the system are the ones benefiting from it. I 100% guarantee you that people our age are not going to get SS checks. We are forced to pay into a debt-based system that mathematically can not work or fulfil the promise it's made. It was even stated when the program started that it was a temporary measure because of how unsustainable it was known to be.

Of course I'm not a huge Elon Musk fan but he gets a lot of blind hate that's hard to separate from real grievances.

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people are living too long

Spoken like someone young enough not to have any degenerative diseases.

"...it's going to destroy itself no matter what."

I strongly disagree, and can provide sources of means to prevent that destruction, which consist of the excessive fortunes of the particularly acquisitive investors in corporations that have committed innumerable crimes of bribery and larcenous thefts to accumulate such fortunes on the backs of the people that have produced the wealth those investors have monetized.

Just for demonstration purposes, I'll start a list. Stop me when I get to someone you reckon hasn't somehow stolen by fraud or other criminal mechanism a significant portion of their fortune, or inherited it from someone that did.

Musk, Thiel, Trump, Soros, Gates, Ellison, then the Rockefeller, Rothschild, Morgan, Dupont, Carnegie, Jay, Bronfman and etc. fortunes. It's a short list because I'm not spending any time on it, but a few $B's here, a few $B's there, starts to add up to real money, particularly when there's no doubt some fraud to trim from SS, if Ol' Muskie hasn't already trimmed that fat by ending payments to double centenarians.

"...the old farts in charge of the system are the ones benefiting from it."

As an old fart that has been physically disabled since injury to my back in the 90s, and that to this day does not seek nor receive any benefit from the Social Security system that would easily provide such benefits if I did seek them, I assure you there are folks that continue to not only pay their own way but to pay into that 'Ponzi' instead of draw it down.

It's not a Ponzi, which is a criminal enterprise intended to defraud. The retirement system was intended to be improved as it was known advancing understanding would enable, and the rapid reduction in family size was not a predicted, nor predictable, metric when SS was created. It has been a real metric that has impacted SS, however, and does require just adjustment with the better understanding of economics available today. It's just too bad that political understanding hasn't advanced commensurately, nor has the arrogance of youth been tempered by claimed advances in psychological sciences, which are pretty much so degraded by politics as to be military rather than medical science today.

A word to the wise. Old age and treachery will defeat youth and enthusiasm every time, and nothing has changed regarding that aphorism since it was stated, whenever and by whoever first said it. Good faith covers a multiplicity of sins, and when you find yourself old enough to consider this topic to directly affect your survival, let's hope you have successfully approached it with nominal good faith before then to merit such grace as will - or won't - be available to you then.

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people are living too long

I find it highly alarming that these words keep getting taken out of context like some kind of Gotcha! Yes, in order to sustain the scam that is modern economics we must continue perpetual cancerous growth of the species. This is not just a social security thing. It's the entire debt based system we live in. Nobody is claiming we need to strive to maintain the scam... except those who do it unknowingly or in bad faith. That's a strawman argument.

Social security is a forced system of debt that steals from the population just like any other tax. The first people that got benefits didn't have to pay into the system and the last people to pay will not get benefits. It's a scam by definition, but perhaps it is more accurate to classify it as racketeering or protection money or some other crime.

Your argument that we can somehow bail out this broken system by stemming corruption elsewhere is irrelevant sentiment. Your solution here of "tax the rich" was not on my bingo card. Social Security is one of the most blatant examples of badly articulated socialism there is. No working citizen should have to pay into this dogshit program. If SS has merit it should just be "UBI for old people". The tax itself is completely unjustifiable. Truly shocking that you're going all Bernie Bro on me right now.

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(Edited)

I first want to point out that I am EXTREMELY triggered, and was when I replied to you. I take this topic very, very personally, because I also work seven days a week and suffer all the consequences you'd expect from that, and probably a lot you wouldn't, so I really actually put my heart and soul into not being a burden on society, and it's not easy when I've been 100% disabled for ~30 years. All that to bring perspective on the tenor of my remarks, that I did try to not make them a personal attack, because I do respect you a lot, which I hope showed.

There is a tl;dr comprising the last two paragraphs of this reply. You can skip to that and get the gist of my comment in a couple seconds.

"...cancerous growth of the species."

Note: you can skip the next 9 paragraphs to skip my response to this misstatement.

I have from time to time tried to point out that I think this is egregiously mistaking the actual situation. Human society is actually sacred in my view. It's not sacred because I am overly fond of people, not even myself (which may surprise some that consider me an overinflated buffoon, as I do), but because of our role in the living organism that is terrestrial life. We don't enter the Space age purposelessly, IMHO. There is some reality in which we are not well versed, but that somehow is sensed or understood by most of us to underlie what we can see, hear, and feel with our fingers, in which some vastly superior intelligence and being(s) in some way, to some degree, have called, do call, or will end up calling a lot of the shots in the reality we have some tiny perspective on.

For some reason, humanity is taking life off shore, beyond the gravity well of this rock. I find that extraordinarily compelling, a riveting fact of human existence that almost none of us give any thought to much, if ever, at all. The utterly inconceivable future of humanity beyond our terrestrial womb does fascinate people, and sci fi is popular entertainment as a result of that fascination, but it isn't even close to exhausting the actually and completely unimaginable reality that is coming for our posterity, as the tech advances that will enable the bold among us to make happen what they intend.

The fact is that once humanity and the living things we take with us beyond Earth will be confronted with a barren waste, where nothing and no one (that we know of now) live, or ever have lived. The sum total of life in the universe will be on Earth and whatever we carry with us beyond it. Forever - and I don't say this lightly or use that word without the complete fullness of it's meaning - afterwards the most precious thing, the most valuable treasure, that those people can ever have will be good company. Sure, food, air, water, survivable environments will all be in short supply and difficult to make, but those are all things that we can actually make. We cannot make good company. More to the point, once you set off for somewhere across the interstellar void, you'll never have any company at all, except if you can sprout people from printers or summat, or can wait at least thousands of years. On top of that there just isn't an end to the barren void of social interaction that is potential.

It won't be long until this reality is of paramount importance to the vast majority of humanity, and it will stay that way in perpetuity. People will never overpopulate the universe, and will always suffer a lack of good company, a shortage of people whom to love, to be loved by, and to relate to of a day, forever and ever, at least for the highly speculatively foreseeable future. As vast as we imagine the universe to be, we fall short in our imaginings.

Every 'cancerous' life we so callously spend today will be more deeply lamented by people in days to come it can hardly be imagined. In a universe where a single person by dint of operating individually owned means of production managed by AI, automated so that person need only direct the production from those means in construction of their preferred development, could literally possess an empire of facilities more vast than the solar system Earth is in, that was empty of people. That no one but themselves alone would ever walk the halls in, would ever dine in, would ever enjoy the incredibly beautiful vistas from, for their entire millennia long lives.

Given reasonable assumptions about tech advance, we'll reach automatable means of production potential to such development in less than a century, and with the assistance of sorting algorithms we have now parse the genetic code of humanity such that senescence is a trifle to overcome with AI medical services. I am afforded a pretty wild imagination, as we can see from this rant, but the kind of tech we'll have in about a century is completely beyond my ability to reasonably predict. Just from refining the tech we have right now, nothing I mention is beyond the reach of that technical capability as extended by AI and automated management of means of production we already have.

The real point of human existence isn't wealth. Truly whatever any of us can conceive of as palatial, as sybaritic wealth, will be utterly trivial to attain in but a few centuries developing the resources of some solar system with automatable means of production. What can't be manufactured is people, real organic people. People born of mothers and raised by parents. The more far we go, the further explore, the more immense our developments, the more scarce the natural population of these places will be.

This is why society is sacred.

I try to keep this in mind when someone scuffs my shoe, or spits a fountain of coffee coughing at the breakfast table. Someday, these delights just won't be available, not only for decades of solitude, but millennia, and even perhaps inconceivable aeons after a journey to a place that takes millions of years to reach.

"Social security is a forced system of debt..."

No, it's not. You don't have to pay in. You can actually and in reality completely avoid ever paying into the SS system. I personally know people that claim to have never paid taxes in their entire life, and I am aware it can be done. I can't verify anyone personally has done it. I haven't avoided all taxes all my life. But I can see how it can be done. No one says you have to live in America and pay taxes in America that contribute to SS.

"...steals from the population..."

Ok. Taxation is theft. However, since we all only pay taxes voluntarily, because as I have pointed out we can avoid paying taxes in America by voting with our feet, by resorting to any number of frauds and swindles - which may well be justifiable if we argue that it is just and lawful to prevent the theft of what is justly ours - or the obviously common technique of swindling it back from Uncle Sam through bribery or some other means of getting the US Treasury to send us checks.

If you agree to pay, it's not stolen from you.

"...the last people to pay will not get benefits."

Not necessarily, as we have already both pointed out that the SS system has faults that need fixing, and that particular fault is fairly easy to rectify by any number of mechanisms, that I am sure I don't need to spell out here to someone as competent as are you. More consequential are the facts that people are living decades longer than actuaries predicted when their SS taxes were calculated, and family size has plummeted to a fraction of what was predicted too. That's most of what's wrong with SS, and these things aren't insurmountable by any stretch of the imagination.

"It's a scam..."

That's not an accurate description of a flawed mechanism that isn't intended to defraud anyone. There are numerous scams that have arisen, that today impair the SS system, and will likely continue to do so into the foreseeable future, but the mechanism as proposed at the time wasn't intended to function in a country in which family sizes plummeted in only a couple decades, and people lived for decades longer too. In fact the SS system can be largely said to be a victim of it's own success at preventing the brutal suffering that almost all humanity has died of heretofore by frailty and disease that comes upon the old. That extraordinary success at extending human life isn't a scam, not by any stretch of the word. It has greatly increased the felicity of Americans for several decades, and the fact that it has succeeded at enabling people that can't swing a pickaxe anymore to continue to live, and it has done this while family sizes declined to a fraction of what they were when SS was enacted, is proof it is not a scam, but has been a blessing to humanity of incalculable value, beyond mere monetary worth. Adding years to the lives of people we love more than ourselves can't be reckoned in mere dollars, and it's actually silly to try.

"...bail out this broken system by stemming corruption elsewhere is irrelevant sentiment."

Note: you can skip down to the seventh paragraph following this one to skip most of the arguments, and go directly to statements of fact that counter your claim.

No, it's quite practical, and likely will happen. In our brief and confusing lives most of us don't gain a view of existence much beyond our personal experiences, but that doesn't mean such perspective isn't available. Just the few millennia of human history reveals enormous revolutions in political organization that must have been inconceivable to earlier peoples, to whom building villages with shared walls between every home, and no streets at all between them, but where everyone gained egress to their home via ladder at the edge of the complex, as at Chatal Huyuk, some ~8k years ago, was the only reasonable way to prevent raiders from killing everyone and taking their stuff. Beyond historical records, it has been shown that timber frame construction was undertaken by ~480kya - which is half again longer than our human species, H. sapiens, are said to have existed. In all that prehistory, and the brief history we have any record of, for these last few millennia, an endless litany of political organizations have been created and given a fair do.

Facing a catastrophe in which billions of people are condemned to brutal suffering and early deaths, people that other people love, that people owe their lives to, that are mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, and lifelong friends, will be accompanied by many determined efforts to prevent that cruel suffering and savage democide of those billions of people. You say it's impractical, but you're not looking at it from the perspective of your children when you're sick and need a surgery to live. A good parent will have children that love them enough to wage war for them. I do, and I'm not even a particularly competent parent.

Hell, people I barely know have drawn steel on my enemies and stood on a wall risking their lives to save me more than once. It is quite ignoring the reality of the value the majority of people regard their loved ones with to call acting to prevent their dying of poverty 'irrelevant' when folks have means of preventing it. It may seem sometimes that people are selfish and will sell their mothers for a dollar, but only psychopaths will, and most people will spend anything they can get their hands on to save their mother's life. I know a couple right now spending $17k a month just to house their aged mother until they can get them moved back into their family home, that needs a bit of renovation before that can happen. They just sold a second home to pay for it, and at a price ~$150k under market to make it happen fast.

Right now the struggle to keep folks alive isn't yet so dire, and most people aren't facing these issues as communities. The last days of the boomers aren't upon us in the fullness of that tragedy yet. There's plenty of examples of societies going straight up Communist just in the last century, so I see no reason to suspect that the entire West, when confronted with their beloved elders dying en masse, or some reviled and well deservedly so billionaires will need to kick in to keep a whole generation well, that won't be what they choose.

Whether it's by taxation, or by mandatory donation, or some other synonym for theft, I do expect this pressure to produce such funds for the maintenance of the elderly. That entire prospect is why I intend to die with a hammer in my hand, in fact, because I do not want to occasion any such ethical or moral dilemmas in my children.

It's insuperable to look back a century as the brutality of Communist conquest and the many millions that are reported to have died to more fairly share the wealth to consider such more fairly sharing wealth irrelevant, when lives of millions, actually billions, of people that are deeply loved are at stake. It may be bloodily and vigorously opposed, it may fail, we may all be slaughtered by modmRNA jabs before it comes to that, but it's not an unreasonable prospect, and particularly when the loss of knowledge that is of enormous import to society is considered. NASA talks about how when engineers retired, whole genres of knowledge became unavailable and they lost the ability to land ships on the moon. When whole industries in traditional fields like animal husbandry are at risk, what is not apparently likely or reasonable can become certain and necessary.

Finally, you show you haven't given this matter much thought, and haven't wrassled with people you care about dying because they can't afford medications or surgeries. SS has no resemblance whatsoever to UBI. When it first came out, and people began receiving it that hadn't paid in, it did. But not today. People that retire have been paying SS their entire lives. It's an insurance program, not a gift. You completely mischaracterize SS by failing to acknowledge that fact. The actuaries may have really fumbled the ball hard in their calculations, but that's not the fault of the people that have been paying SS for their entire working lives, and that's actually how SS is calculated, based on what people have paid in. They send you a statement every 5 years that shows this fact. You should read one.

Do have a look into it before you make such factually insuperable claims again.

"...you're going all Bernie Bro..."

Since when is making insurance payments Socialism? That's factually false. You should take it back.

tl;dr Every single point you made was wrong or factually incorrect. I took the time to thoroughly explain why above. The main factually false claim is that SS remotely resembles UBI, because it is an insurance program that people pay into their entire working lives, not gifts, not charity, and not in any way stealing or taking from anyone. Everyone today receiving SSI has paid into that insurance fund according to the rules that have been set by actuaries employed by the US government to enable them to receive retirement payments. The miscalculations of these actuaries isn't the same thing as theft by fraud, and it's a gross and pejorative insult to say that anyone receiving their SSI they paid into all their working lives is somehow a scammer, or anything but the recipient of retirement they paid for.

Look it up if you don't want to take my word for it.

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Oh friend, you are not totally wrong (in my view at least), you bring up important realities of the system. But, I think I'm going to take the time (later, cuz i have a hangover) to write a good reply to you. Maybe even making it a post, because as you know the subject is very complex (at least for me).

But again, I'll grant you your points, more so the fact that me disliking Elon makes me react almost always in rejection.

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I largely agree with you here, because moving fast and breaking things is fine in rocket science, or engineering generally, but not when it comes to politics and people. The things you break aren't things in politics, but lives and people that will suffer to death when you break them. Such policy isn't tolerable when it comes to people.

I think what he means by Ponzi is just that the rapid reduction in family size that unpredictably followed greater prosperity has created a top heavy burden for the system, that wasn't provided flexibility to adapt to changing population dynamics and increasingly burdens working people today via the mechanisms of taxation that were expected to suffice because family sizes weren't expected to crash. However, it's a poor choice of words because it implies criminality, which is an unfair and prejudicial insinuation that has further implications, none of which are good when considered from the perspective of an engineer trapped in that perspective.

For myself, I intend to die with a hammer in my hand, and have approached the expected age of expiration that has been applicable since deep into prehistory. I have no particular claim to be an essential person, nor vast wealth to throw at extending my persistence beyond my utility. Having seen folks that have lived decades beyond their utility, I neither find such prospect particularly appealing, nor worthy of undertaking anything I could expect to provide such wealth, as getting rich quick seems to usually require killing a lot of people to take their stuff, which I am temperamentally incapable of.

Hopefully Musk isn't considered remotely qualified to propose solutions to the present economic realities of corporatist power opposing the necessary humanitarian policies necessary to resolve the currenct dilemma, and that our kids aren't baffled by bullshit that causes them to disregard our societal, familial, and personal affection and love for one another that are the bonds society is connected by, and cause it to be sacred beyond any other system, mechanism, or mere institution that exists.

Thanks!

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I also intend to never retire, but as with you, I'm attempting to operate in reality. A basic safety net is not only an act of humane kindness, it's also how you prevent the whole system from collapsing.

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That was a long conversation with a lot of opinions flying around 🤣. People get real passionate about Social Security, taxes and the rich. Musk talking about cutting it obviously stirred things up for everyone

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old age comes for us all... the white on my beard announces it

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